Look, EU, it is difficult to take you seriously when you forced all this cookie notification bullshit on us.
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Look, EU, it is difficult to take you seriously when you forced all this cookie notification bullshit on us. That feature a) should not exist and b) if it did, should be a BROWSER feature not "every website in the entire world now has to bother everyone forever about this stupid thing" https://blog.codinghorror.com/breaking-the-webs-cookie-jar/
@codinghorror GDPR never mandated cookie banners. GDPR mandates user consent. There was a browser feature for that: the DNT HTTP header. That header was deprecated because nobody respected it. It was just easier to enforce user consent through cookie banners and dark patterns.
Nothing here is EU's fault. You want a better option? Campaign for a legislation to enforce the website to respect DNT.
Or… Just don't track?
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@dalias @codinghorror that’s all very nice in theory, but it was always going to end up with what we have, due to the way this regulation was brought in. With having to incessantly click Accept on every single website out there. Only a small fraction of people care to do anything else. Thus reducing the experience for almost everyone and annoying millions every day. The cookies are not just used for ads, but every analytics tool out there. Key to running sites.
@Setok @dalias @codinghorror Not if you do analytics based on your own web server logs. You only need consent if you use a data guzzling third party analytics tool.
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@Setok @dalias @codinghorror Not if you do analytics based on your own web server logs. You only need consent if you use a data guzzling third party analytics tool.
@mkoek @dalias @codinghorror tell that to the thousands of startups desperately trying to balance with a billion other things they're trying to do. That's just not a practical suggestion when the third party analytics are much faster to set up, better understood, and generally superior too than some self-hosted thing cobbled together.
As mentioned, the reality we are in today with cookie popups everywhere was 100% predictable and the regulation was thus poorly considered.
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@mkoek @dalias @codinghorror tell that to the thousands of startups desperately trying to balance with a billion other things they're trying to do. That's just not a practical suggestion when the third party analytics are much faster to set up, better understood, and generally superior too than some self-hosted thing cobbled together.
As mentioned, the reality we are in today with cookie popups everywhere was 100% predictable and the regulation was thus poorly considered.
@Setok @dalias @codinghorror I would not advise startups to behave unethically because it’s easier, no. In fact, shouldn’t it be an eye opener that a law that requires people to do the right thing (don’t track people without consent) is viewed as wrong simply because it takes a tiny bite out of the ability to move fast and break things?
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@Setok @dalias @codinghorror I would not advise startups to behave unethically because it’s easier, no. In fact, shouldn’t it be an eye opener that a law that requires people to do the right thing (don’t track people without consent) is viewed as wrong simply because it takes a tiny bite out of the ability to move fast and break things?
@mkoek @dalias @codinghorror frankly, yes. The law hasn’t changed anything of substance. Companies still use the same analytics tools. But now users are constantly nagged at, and companies have increased costs and slower go to market times as they need to faff with these things.
Perfect example of regulation that is completely misguided, and is a nuisance to almost everyone, bar a few people on Mastodon. Wrong approach.
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@codinghorror GDPR never mandated cookie banners. GDPR mandates user consent. There was a browser feature for that: the DNT HTTP header. That header was deprecated because nobody respected it. It was just easier to enforce user consent through cookie banners and dark patterns.
Nothing here is EU's fault. You want a better option? Campaign for a legislation to enforce the website to respect DNT.
Or… Just don't track?
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@mkoek @dalias @codinghorror frankly, yes. The law hasn’t changed anything of substance. Companies still use the same analytics tools. But now users are constantly nagged at, and companies have increased costs and slower go to market times as they need to faff with these things.
Perfect example of regulation that is completely misguided, and is a nuisance to almost everyone, bar a few people on Mastodon. Wrong approach.
@Setok @dalias @codinghorror it hasn’t changed anything because it’s not enforced (well almost)
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@Setok @dalias @codinghorror it hasn’t changed anything because it’s not enforced (well almost)
@mkoek @Setok @dalias it hasn’t changed anything because it does not address root causes. Users want everything for free, forever, and content creators want to make money to feed themselves and their families. Until we resolve THAT, we will be stuck in endless combat between these two opposing forces. And the money is going to find a way to inevitably win because it has to. You have to make a living somehow. Free everything is great and all but it is never ever ever gonna be “free.”
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@mkoek @Setok @dalias it hasn’t changed anything because it does not address root causes. Users want everything for free, forever, and content creators want to make money to feed themselves and their families. Until we resolve THAT, we will be stuck in endless combat between these two opposing forces. And the money is going to find a way to inevitably win because it has to. You have to make a living somehow. Free everything is great and all but it is never ever ever gonna be “free.”
@codinghorror @mkoek @Setok @dalias money doesnt have to win, post scarcity is achievable but we have to shed the moral requirement that people must “work” to be allowed an existence of comfort
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@mkoek @Setok @dalias it hasn’t changed anything because it does not address root causes. Users want everything for free, forever, and content creators want to make money to feed themselves and their families. Until we resolve THAT, we will be stuck in endless combat between these two opposing forces. And the money is going to find a way to inevitably win because it has to. You have to make a living somehow. Free everything is great and all but it is never ever ever gonna be “free.”
@codinghorror @Setok @dalias I am actually fine with Facebook charging €6 (iirc) for a privacy-friendly account. Also fine with the new kind of cookie banners on some newspaper websites that say up front that either they track you, or you pay for access. Just be honest about it. It’s the sneaky profile building that I totally agree with being illegal.
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@AugierLe42e @codinghorror GDPR just makes it more obvious and more obnoxious.
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@AugierLe42e @codinghorror GDPR just makes it more obvious and more obnoxious.
@nlupo @AugierLe42e yes, if we make the Torment Nexus a bit more Torment-y, perhaps it will go away? GOOD PLAN EVERYONE EXCELLENT WORK
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@codinghorror @Setok @dalias I am actually fine with Facebook charging €6 (iirc) for a privacy-friendly account. Also fine with the new kind of cookie banners on some newspaper websites that say up front that either they track you, or you pay for access. Just be honest about it. It’s the sneaky profile building that I totally agree with being illegal.
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@codinghorror @mkoek @Setok Really telling what kind of person would blame the pigs and not the farmer...
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@codinghorror @mkoek @Setok Really telling what kind of person would blame the pigs and not the farmer...
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@codinghorror @mkoek @Setok When the behavior of some humans is actively hostile towards others I care about, I absolutely am going to work against that behavior, and encourage others to do so too.
Not doing that is how we got where we are. Letting bad people keep pushing norms and boundaries to do harmful things they wanted to make money doing.
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@codinghorror @mkoek @Setok When the behavior of some humans is actively hostile towards others I care about, I absolutely am going to work against that behavior, and encourage others to do so too.
Not doing that is how we got where we are. Letting bad people keep pushing norms and boundaries to do harmful things they wanted to make money doing.
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@codinghorror @mkoek @Setok @dalias that's funny because SO doesn't pay the content creators either
and the main point left out on these discussions all the freaking time:
the reason the popups exist is because the cost of a thousand advertising "impressions" is roughly less than a cent for an unknown user, and around $12 for a user with a full profile, hence sites try to match you every visit. -
dunno, imho thats overstating it. People pay for pretty much everything, either directly, or indirectly via taxes. And many of the things that are now supposed to be "free" used to be paid for (newspapers, magazines etc.) without even thinking about it.
rather than a deep homo sapiens malfunction, the issue is more of a silly mix of adtech conditioning (here, free email for your data) and publishers not gettting their act together for the digital age.
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@codinghorror @mkoek @Setok When the behavior of some humans is actively hostile towards others I care about, I absolutely am going to work against that behavior, and encourage others to do so too.
Not doing that is how we got where we are. Letting bad people keep pushing norms and boundaries to do harmful things they wanted to make money doing.
@dalias @codinghorror @mkoek @Setok Fun fact about this: This relates to the nature vs nurture argument.
Nurture accounts for a lot and there's considerable archeological evidence for egalitarian societies.
"Real world human behavior" is either a uselessly constrained set designating exclusively the state of current societies, or a uselessly broad term that can encompass basically any possible society.
