@ariadne I found the complaining about systemd super irritating but then I tried actually using systemd and Wayland and they actually are vry frustrating technologies! I think the problem with both these systems is that when there are problems they inhibit you from fixing them yourself. If part of systemd doesn't work right it's hard to just replace it because systemd is greedy & wants to manage so many things. Wayland encourages hyper fragmentation, so if GNOME lacks the bit you need you're SOL

@mcc @ariadne I think maybe you can make an argument there for sysv init and how everything is just shell scripts and a lot of people know bash.

But have you actually tried fixing X11? I have. It's not easier. There is absolutely nothing more approachable about X11 as a technology. There's just a bunch of people who are angry that XYZ unmaintained tool they found in the 90s doesn't work anymore.

@ariadne I found the complaining about systemd super irritating but then I tried actually using systemd and Wayland and they actually are vry frustrating technologies! I think the problem with both these systems is that when there are problems they inhibit you from fixing them yourself. If part of systemd doesn't work right it's hard to just replace it because systemd is greedy & wants to manage so many things. Wayland encourages hyper fragmentation, so if GNOME lacks the bit you need you're SOL

@gfxstrand @mcc @ariadne I don't even think a lot of the Wayland haters even had 'an old piece of software'. I think they spotted something weird or broken in modern stuff and decided that 'Wayland is garbage'.

Fuzzy scaling on an app that's using legacy libraries? "Wayland is garbage"

A broken widget in a video editor that got patched between the disto freeze and today? "Wayland is garbage"

An article describing how to change a config for your X11 screen layout is no longer valid? "Wayland is garbage"

Personally, I switched to Wayland as soon as I could, the rough edges apps had with it in 2018 were well worth how well it performed with HiDPI and laptop docks. I remember the Bad Old Days of writing my own xfree86 configuration files and using a calculator to figure out my modelines, and a LOT of the ugliness of that era is still obviously under the hood of xorg-server and xlibre today.

@mcc @ariadne fragmentation is inevitable when you have a diversity of communities building different (sometimes diametrally opposed) visions of what GUI should be. To me it's actually remarkable how much is shared. And it's okay to build things that only work on some DEs.

@valpackett @ariadne I think it is possible to do community organizing

@mcc @valpackett community organizing around *what*? i do not think you can force projects to implement wayland features they find distasteful for whatever reason.

@ariadne @mcc @valpackett it's not even just a matter of taste, a lot of wayland features are to support stuff that has zero relevance to desktop.

@DarcMoughty @gfxstrand @ariadne my screen is blurry. I don't like my screen being blurry. It is reasonable that I don't like my screen being blurry.

@dysfun @mcc @valpackett look i am trying to talk about the foot fetish DE that everyone complains about not implementing XYZ protocol extension every week

@mcc @valpackett community organizing around *what*? i do not think you can force projects to implement wayland features they find distasteful for whatever reason.

@ariadne @valpackett As a GNOME user I very, very badly have to hope that it will, someday, be possible to force the GNOME project to do things or else I'm never going to have usable software

@mcc @gfxstrand @ariadne Oh absolutely, that was something that really bothered me for the last few years. The reason many apps are blurry under Wayland was that they were still using X11, it wasn't because of Wayland, it was because of X11. It's shameful how long so many important apps took to get native, but SDL apps, Chrome, Firefox, everything that uses GTK 3 or 4 or modern QT, and a whole bunch of other stuff look crisp in their current versions. There are still a few Electron apps that use XWayland, but if you had trouble with blurry apps under something like Ubuntu 24.04 or earlier, I'd recommend trying the latest non-LTS release, where apps have been compiled against libraries that understand Wayland and get its fractional scaling right. For some apps, like VSCode, a few environment variables made it look good for a long time now, but vendors didn't set them as defaults.

@DarcMoughty Yup! "Why is my app blurry? This never happened under X11!" Yeah, dude, that's because X11 never had frame scaling. Like, have you seen the attempts at doing scaling with X11?!?

@mcc @ariadne

@gfxstrand @DarcMoughty @ariadne Yes. There is a method of doing DPI upscaling in X11. My understanding is this method is somewhat ad hoc, but it works. I have a large number of applications on my linux system, mostly but not exclusively electron based, which can correctly and attractively do DPI upscaling when I run in X11, but which are blurry when run in the GNOME Wayland server.